eight years, four owners, no mile

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Bodo Langbehn
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Bodo Langbehn » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:52 pm

Hi Gerhard,

I just have seen the trouble you have with your Japa.
I have built a Panther for my own and as you can see on the picture, that the sprocket is sitting correct in the middle of the chambers of the track links, also I have bevelled the gear rings. I don`t have any clearance between the tracks and the inner roadwheels, they are guiding the track extreme tight and I never had these problems even in rough terrain.

Cheers Bodo
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Gerhard Michel
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Gerhard Michel » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:21 am

Hi Bodo,

thanks for your info.

My shown ' testing sprocket' is a brandnew one, therefore its teeth are not yet bevelled.

My problems mean not the position of the sprocket teeth in the track link chambers, but the scratching of the guiding teeth of the track links at the inner side of the sprockets. If the guiding teeth would stand a little closer together, all would be fine. The chambers distance is OK, but there is some clearance which would allow to 'widen" the sprocket a little to avoid this jamming at its inner sides.

My two pics show the difference between the original Armortek track links (not jamming) and Vincent's (jamming). The inner roadwheels however have some unnecessary clearance to my guiding teeth. My bending has reduced this clearance, but this may not bee too narrow, otherwise the teeth jam to the idler!
kind regards
Gerhard
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Phil Woollard
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Phil Woollard » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:43 am

Well Gerhard it looks to me like it's a case of "limits, fits and clearance" issues. The guide horns are not needed in the sprocket as the teeth hold the alignment, the horns around the road wheels present the track to the idlers in the forward direction and the same with the sprocket but vice versa .Any longitudinal slack in the track/chain ( wear or slack fitting pins ) will cause the track to bend or rotate about the pin and so cause misalignment especially under extreme loads like turning and foreign object ingression, the scale rock or clod of grass is very unforgiving as we all know!

Open up the clearance around those horns (new sprockets as you said with more space) and the sprockets and idlers should perform as they ought to.

The MK1 fibre glass models get over the derailing/jumping off track issues buy slightly extending the horns, an out of scale expedient but a much more functional track......just my thoughts Phil :D
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Gerhard Michel
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Gerhard Michel » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:59 pm

Hi Phil,

unfortunately I saw just now your post.

Yes, that's right, I think. The weather here ist not suitable to make further tests. Therefore the sand test is still pending...........
kind regards
Gerhard
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Gerhard Michel
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Gerhard Michel » Thu May 11, 2017 12:18 am

Hi,


now I made further tests (or better 'tries for testing') with the steel track links. Unfortunately the result on garden mould was not better than on grass grounds.

Again I must say that all my problems only occurred by using the steel track links on my model! I think that all would be fine when I were using the original Armortek track links, but I didn't test that till now.

I think it will not be necessary to build brandnew sprockets only to get the steel track links working. Today I mean that some more space between both rows of teeth of the sprocket is all that is needed to avoid jamming. A kind of a 'five arms washer' between the two parts of the sprocket may solve this problem.

Nevertheless I am thinking about making new sprocket rings (?) (sorry, but my technical english is not good enough to describe always exactly what I mean), to get exchangeable sprocket rings without needing to change the whole sprocket. It should be possible to change an original (worn out) Armortek sprocket to get a wheel rim (?) which can carry two selfmade removeable sprocket rings.


BUT another difficulty may be even bigger than the sprocket theme!


I suppose that the steel track links are optimized for driving mainly on hard grounds like streets and so on. Therefore the links are equipped with high lugs (?) to avoid untimely abrasion. These lugs lock with grass grounds so heavily that turns become very exhausting for the tank. The model wants to turn, the track links want to stay in their position! Now the whole drive train tries to get out of its track links! First result: the track links will run out of the road wheels and the idlers (!), and the whole model is jammed!

For the first time I got this effect at a grass ground, but later also at normal garden mould! Under these conditions the model is undriveable in my opinion! The sprocket teeth are damaged, the idlers are scratched at both sides.

My three other 1/6 scale models (Bigtanks King Tiger and Hunting Tiger, Nils Hermann's Porsche Turret King Tiger) all use Olafs steel track links originally made for the Armortek King Tiger and equipped with self-made sprockets. These track links have lower lugs which don't lock so hard with the ground, so that this effect can't be observed till now!

Therefore I will now retrofit my Jagdpanther to the original Armortek track links till I have a new idea to solve these problems............
kind regards
Gerhard
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1/6 Scale models: Jagdpanther (AT), Jagdtiger (BT), Königstiger (Porsche turret, NH), Königstiger (Production turret, BT), Pz. IV (SH)

Phil Markham
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Phil Markham » Thu May 11, 2017 9:36 am

Hi Gerhard,

I'm following this with interest as I have a set of Vincent's steel tracks that I was thinking of using on my as yet unbuilt Panther G (PM sent about this). To be honest my Panther would generally be used on hard ground so may be fine with the Chevrons/Lugs as they are, although a set of steel sprockets would be nice to avoid excessive wear of the kit aluminium set.
A potential solution in combination with new modified sprockets may be to grind down the height of the chevrons on each track link to something more proportional. This may be very time consuming but would be a simple process if it helps solve the issue.

Hope you find the solution mate :)

Regards
Phil

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Gerhard Michel
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Gerhard Michel » Thu May 11, 2017 10:35 am

Hi Phil,

yes, I think lower chevrons (thanks :wink: ) could solve this problem, which doesn't exist with my 'Olaf track links'. Yes, Olaf's tracks also need much more power in turning on grass (up to 55 Amps instead of 30 Amps using the original 'Zamak' track links of my other models), but there is no other trouble in driving a tableturn.

Grinding down the chevrons may be the right solution. This could be a nice job for next winter....... :twisted:
kind regards
Gerhard
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Phil Woollard » Thu May 11, 2017 12:27 pm

Hi Gerhard, maybe just run with ali tracks and be done with it :D I think you are having to much fun sorting it all out :D
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Gerhard Michel
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Gerhard Michel » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:16 pm

Hello guys,

now I made 'star washers' to broaden the sprockets for the steel track links. Here is one in its rough state. The inner cycle must be exactly to get a good setting for drilling the 3 mm holes:

Image

The result is OK:

Image

Just a test before the final grinding. Now the teeth have enough clearance to the sprocket sides:

Image

OK, this may solve the clearing problems of the steel track links, but not the extremely high grip of the chevrons.
kind regards
Gerhard
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1/6 Scale models: Jagdpanther (AT), Jagdtiger (BT), Königstiger (Porsche turret, NH), Königstiger (Production turret, BT), Pz. IV (SH)

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Gerhard Michel
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Gerhard Michel » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:33 am

Here are still some pics showing the wearing of the drive train by the steel track links in only half an hour of use:

Image

Image

Image

This is absolutely not usual using steel track links! I'm now using Olafs steel track links for the King Tiger more than 5 years with my other three models without such effects.
kind regards
Gerhard
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1/6 Scale models: Jagdpanther (AT), Jagdtiger (BT), Königstiger (Porsche turret, NH), Königstiger (Production turret, BT), Pz. IV (SH)

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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Gerhard Michel » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:29 pm

Hello again,

good news for the steel track links: the main problem with Vincents steel track links (after resolving the wrong gap of the sprockets) is the extraordinary height of the chevrons, which generates too much traction to allow curves in heavy grounds. I recommended to reduce the height of the chevrons to reduce the traction, but till now I didn't have time enough to try that by myself.

Olaf (the one with the video clips from Hausen, not the manufacturer of the King Tiger steel track links) told me now in the Bigtanks forum that he grinded half the height of all the chevrons and now his Jagdpanther can move freely also in heavy grounds without damaging the drive train. I think that is really good news for all guys who will use the track links with their tanks really driving in the 'wilderness'.
kind regards
Gerhard
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1/6 Scale models: Jagdpanther (AT), Jagdtiger (BT), Königstiger (Porsche turret, NH), Königstiger (Production turret, BT), Pz. IV (SH)

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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Gerhard Michel » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:59 pm

Hello guys,

in Hausen I could speek to Olaf, who has the same issue with his steel track links, of course. Now he grinded the chevrons to only 1 mm thickness. Also with this slim height the Jagdpanther is not able to ride curves in meadow grounds! Only hard floor grounds are fine.

Therefore I finally fear that nobody who intends to drive his tank model on all kinds of ground can use the steel track links! This is very unhappy for all guys who bought the steel track links to get fine and durable material for driving.... :roll:
kind regards
Gerhard
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1/6 Scale models: Jagdpanther (AT), Jagdtiger (BT), Königstiger (Porsche turret, NH), Königstiger (Production turret, BT), Pz. IV (SH)

Christoffer Ahlfors
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Christoffer Ahlfors » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:48 pm

Yes, that would be bad news, but what about the Armortek tracks? They have chevrons equally tall. Of course, they are aluminum and will wear out faster, but when new. Do they have the same issue?
Klotzen, nicht kleckern (Guderian on panzer tactics, but the way I interpret it - it applies to a great many things in life)

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Gerhard Michel
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Gerhard Michel » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:50 pm

Hi Christoffer,

the chevrons of the Armortek tracks are not half as tall as the ones of the steel track links, and the original tracks are not half as heavy as the steel ones. I think that these both characteristics cause that Armortek tracks don't have the same issue, but depending on their true scale image (big bores) they tend to break easier in rough grounds.

Perhaps the Panther / Jagdpanther's drive train (especially the road wheels) is not able to harmonize with track links that have a strong contact to the ground. I use steel track links on my Jagdtiger and my both Königstigers with best results. They have flat chevrons (1,5 mm high, like the originals of Armortek), but they are still heavier than the Panther track links. The King Tiger's drive train however has a much better fencing of the track links than the Panther's.

The Hausen event includes some driving on hard floors like asphalt and gravel, causing some wear to aluminium track links. Really damaging however I saw only at grass grounds and at (occasionally humid) sand like Eckersmühlen.

Sorry for showing here a non Armortek model, but these conditions after a hairpin turn would be absolutely deadly for aluminium track links! Here are up to 40 mm of humid sand between tracks and roadwheels causing extremely heavy tension to the track:

Image
kind regards
Gerhard
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Re: eight years, four owners, no mile

Post by Christoffer Ahlfors » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:24 pm

I discussed the issue that the guide horns are eating away on the inside of the sprockets with a good friend of mine, who has scratch built a Panther in 1/5 using brass track links from das Giesswerk. There were no discernible differences between these and Vincent's track links and especially the guide horns. His model did not have this problem. He suggested that if Vincent's track links are a tad wider than Armortek's, then the front road wheel assembly will have some play between the guide horns and will not keep the track centered over the sprocket equally well. The metal on the sides of his first road wheel assembly is quite worn and I see that yours is not, so I guess there might be something in that. I would like to suggest, however, that you increase the spacing between the sprocket rings just a tad more, so that the guide horns can not contact the inside of the sprocket.
That's the geometry side of things. Regarding the material, the sprocket rings need to be harder. Consider that for every revolution of the track, the sprocket will make several revolutions and each tooth will wear that much more compared to the track. Of course, replacing sprocket rings is a lot cheaper than replacing the track, but aluminum will not last long.
Hope this helps.
Klotzen, nicht kleckern (Guderian on panzer tactics, but the way I interpret it - it applies to a great many things in life)

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