Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

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AlastairCooke
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Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by AlastairCooke » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:45 am

Hi All,
Thanks to Stephen White, I am able to take on this project. I have been an observer of this forum for perhaps 5 years but have only recently registered. I have been waiting for the right project at the right time, as I will retire soon. Like a lot of us, I assume, I have been interested in the Tiger for many years, sparked by the Tamiya kits of the 1970s. This project is perfect for me as there is a lot of non-standard stuff to do to produce faithful representation of this unique vehicle.

It will be a long-term project but hopefully of interest to the Forum. My plan will be to build on the excellent research undertaken by Stephen and produce a model of the vehicle, as it would have appeared after 12 Apr 45 but before its final fateful action.

So the F01 will be an amalgam of three different vehicles (chassis, turret, gun & mantlet) with 2 or 3 miss-matched paint schemes/camouflage patterns? I intend to borrow some ideas from John Grima (East Coast Armory) and fit out the rear with an engine, radiators and cooling fans etc.

Regards
Alastair

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by Stephen White » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:10 am

So pleased Alastair that the project is in good hands and will be built as I intended. That opens the possibility of seeing your F01 and my Comet "Celerity" together, representing both sides of the the action on the Drebber, which was the last tank to tank engagement of the war in Europe for the British Army. Looking forward to following your build. Stephen

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by Vince Cutajar » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:34 am

Will be also following this build. There can never be enough build logs (at least for me).

Vince

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by Chris Hall » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:21 pm

Alastair -

Welcome to the gang ! We're a friendly, if somewhat opinionated :wink: bunch, so never be afraid of asking for help - we all started with our first bolt / rivet once, and we all love a project (especially an historical one).

And, if you live near enough to one of the shows (especially at Bovington, which is akin to Mecca / Shangri-La / Eden), come along and introduce yourself. It's always good to put a face to the name.

Good luck with the build,

Chris
2 x Mark IV's (Abt. 14 Beutepanzer Liesel and F30 Flaming Fire II)
Morris Quad, 2 x limbers and 1 x 25-pdr (45RA, Korea 1951)
M3 Lee (25th Dragoons, Burma 1944)

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by AlastairCooke » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:22 pm

Hi All,
Having picked up the kit from Stephen, the adventure begins...
20150101_150641-tiny.jpg
20150101_150553-tiny.jpg
Regards,
Alastair

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by AlastairCooke » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:24 am

Hi All,

Let’s start with some background and scene setting. Having studied an image of F01 obtained by Stephen White from a veteran’s collection it can be seen that the number 158 was painted on the centre of the glacis plate in a light colour (white?). The number is painted in a similar manner to the 445 seen on a Stadtgas powered training tank photographed during a night time review or parade. I am going to assume that this means that for F01 the Fahrgestellnummer (Fgnr.), of the Wanne, was most likely 250158 and therefore it is from a vehicle completed under contract SS 4911-210-5910/41 and issued in the third week of March 1943. David Bryden has stated (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missing ... f01-t58140) that 250158 went to the Putlos Tank Gunnery Training School. Based on the Fgnr. it would have been supplied with:
Maybach HL 210 P45.
K.F.F.2 deleted.
Folding front mudguards.
Groove in ball mount for MG 34 with toggle bolts for waterproof cover.
Fiefel system.
S mines.
2 head lights.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary I am going to assume that the delivery date allows the engine access door to have the folding stops placed outside of the lift handles and that the rear cover panel has the triangular cover and the door catch in the revised position. This is what Stephen planned for the build when he purchased the kit.

By Apr 45 the Fiefel system and S mines were absent. Therefore, I will assume, that common with other tanks, 250158 was converted to Stadtgas when used for training. The ‘famous’ photograph of a training Tiger tank ‘visiting’ the shops? clearly shows the Fiefel system stripped off. This means that I plan to build F01 with only the Fiefel system attachment bosses and lower tube support strap plates remaining. I also plan to fit an air intake cover plate. The S mine mounting plates that are welded to the hull will added as well as the boss for the Bosch lift on the driver’s side.
I have a late pattern mantlet (from the 2012 Tiger 1 kit) so will need to drill a second hole as F01 operated with a binocular gun sight. More about the turret later. Finally, I am planning to replace the road wheels with a set taken from the new (2019) King Tiger kit when they become available. I shall retain the 700 mm idler as David Bryden has provided persuasive evidence for its retention.

As a result of these proposed changes I have full Fiefel system and maybe a set of solid road wheels if anyone is interested. I am also considering replacing the front and rear mudguards with those from Six Scale Icons so the Armourtek originals may also be going begging.

My first task will be to modify the belly plate to show the engine attached points and the various drains and covers that are missing. I will assume that, although it is highly likely that the original HL 210 was replaced, it was not upgraded to the HL 230. (Two years of teaching driving skills to recruits to the s PzAbt was probably just too much for a single engine!) I wish to make the model as realistic as possible so am thinking about replacing the M4x10 hex bolts that secure the suspension mounting bars with counter sunk ones. Has anyone done this before and if so are there any issues?

I hope this posting is of interest and gives some idea of how I plan to approach the build. Please feel free to comment on any of the decisions I have made about the build standard.

Regards
Alastair

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by Vince Cutajar » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:12 pm

Do you mean something like this:
Tiger 031.JPG
Yes it is doable and other modelers have done it. Suggest using a pillar drill or something to keep the countersunk bit straight. On the 2017 Tiger 1 two of those screws are shorter than 10mm.

Vince

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by AlastairCooke » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:16 pm

Vince,
Thanks for the image. That is exactly what I had in mind and now recall seeing this on your build log. I have looked at so many pictures of Tiger 1 builds posted on this forum that I cannot remember what I have seen and what is a new idea. So thanks for taking the time to show me that it is possible. I have a mill with a chuck attachment so will be using that.

Alastair

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by Vince Cutajar » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:39 pm

I have studied all the Tiger 1 build logs that are available and many times I forget where I have seen something. I have learned a lot from past builders and they still help me when I get stuck. After all that is the idea behind the forum. We learn from each other.

If you have a mill then it should not be a problem with countersinking the holes. Below is an image of the unconventional setup I used to countersink the two front and two rear holes.
Tiger 027.JPG
Vince

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by AlastairCooke » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:38 pm

Hi All,
Build has started with some dry fitting of the hull plates.
20150108_140807-min.jpg
Alastair

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by AlastairCooke » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:20 pm

Hi All,
So with the hull plates going together I am thinking about scale plate thicknesses and weld detail. I want to go through the thought process early before anything permanent or irreversible is done. I would appreciate any advice concerning the simplest (and easiest) method to give the illusion of 10 mm thick (close to a scale 62 mm) lower hull side plates. In addition, I plan, at this stage, to make the hull deck (and the turret roof) removable by means of magnets so any advice on how to deal with the weld detail on the removable bits would also be appreciated. I have only a small mill at home so re-machining replacement plates from raw stock is beyond its capabilities.

Regards,
Alastair

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by davidwilkins » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:47 pm

Hi Alastair,

There are a lot of different ways to do the weld simulations my preferred method was to mill a groove/trench in each plate to the required width before assembly, each trench would be about 1mm to 1.5mm deep. I got a lot information on weld measurements from David Brydon tiger info website and from measuring tiger 131 at Bovington.

As regards the side panels on the armortek kit I added a 2mm plate to the ends to make them 10mm thick. If what to look at beginning of my build thread I you think you will see where I am coming from. (Tiger131 in south wales) I hope this information is of some use to you.

I am looking forward to seeing your build progress.

Regards

David

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by AlastairCooke » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:08 pm

Hi All,
Carrying on with possible modifications to the plates, best undertaken before the hull is permanently assembled, I was thinking about the track tension covers on the rear. Has anyone come up with a means of changing the orientation of the securing bolts so that the heads are visible from the outside as is the case on many (all ?) of the full sized vehicles. I have designed a cup that will go on the inside to retain the adjustment screw in case of track breakage. The design is similar to that developed by John Grima (East Coast Armory) but will be 3D printed. This could be modified to hold an M3 nut captive but that may be problematic when the cover is removed as the cup could move making re-attachment more difficult. I plan to install an engine and so simply opening up the vehicle will not help.

Thanks in advance,
Alastair

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by Vince Cutajar » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:27 pm

Hi Alastair

This is what I did:

https://www.armortek.co.uk/Forum3b/view ... &start=165

I also counterbored the covers for the bolts. In the photo that is a standard M3 hex bolt but I've been meaning to change them to M3 with one size smaller hex heads.

Vince

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Re: Tiger Ausf E “F01” Gruppe Fehrmann

Post by AlastairCooke » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:17 pm

Hi All,
Whilst wanting for some additional parts to be sourced, thoughts turn back to the build standard.... :?

Having just got hold of a copy of the excellent Tigers in Combat III and looked at the section on training it is very clear that it was common practice to paint the Fgst. Nr in white on the glacis plate of the Tigers used at the training schools. So I am reassured about my assumption that the base vehicle for the hull is 250158.

I wish to emphasize the 'cobbled together' nature of the vehicle without detracting from what is known based on the photographic evidence. Therefore, as the RHS drive sprocket is not visible I am considering using an early pattern cover to contrast with the late pattern on the LHS. I had originally decided against the HL 230 as when factory fitted the belly plate was modified and I thought this would/could not have been done to 158 at the training establishment workshop. However recalling that Tiger 131 is now fitted with an HL 230 with, I assume, the original engine access plates I could do the same to F01. It is perhaps more likely that spare HL 230's were available when it was refitted as the HL 210 had been phased out about by mid 43.

One final thought for today...
The pictures of the rear left quarter of the tank suggest that at the time the photo was was taken (after the tank had been moved out of the way) it was missing its exhaust mufflers. I am not sure if this a 'trick of the light' (caused by the camera angle) or if they had been removed... or never fitted? Deploying the vehicle into combat without silencing does not strike me as tactically sound, but having never heard a Tiger running with no exhaust and not being a tank man I cannot comment.

As ever if you have any thoughts on any of this please reply. :)

Regards,
Alastair.

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