Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

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Vince Cutajar
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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Vince Cutajar » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:03 pm

Finished the drawings for the rectangular access panel and pannier gusset and took them and a couple of .dxf files to the laser cutter. Still waiting for a quote from them.

Received Loctite 638 which I got from the UK as it is not available here. Started test fitting the suspension components. Deburred the axle brass bushes and then tried one of the axles to see how it fits in the bush. The bush did not want to go past the threaded holes in the axle. Although these threaded holes looked like they were cleaned up, on closer inspection with a magnifying glass, there where still some minute burrs. A couple of strokes with a fine sand paper saved the day and now the bushes are a slip fit in the axles.
Tiger 021a.jpg
Dimple on some of the axles
I was always curious about this dimple between the two threaded holes. When cleaning up the fixed end of the torsion bar suspension I noticed that some of them had them also. That's when the penny dropped. I think that the axle and the fixed end with the dimple are meant for the 5mm rod. Without dimples, it's for the 5.5mm rods.

Finally test fitted the axles with the bush in the suspension bar and they all fit freely which means the alignment of the holes is correct.

Vince

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Vince Cutajar » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:08 pm

Haven't done anything on the tank as I have been slowly working on the four bump stops. Lots of fiddly operations on a relatively small part. In fact today decided to take a break and run some errands.

The good news is that finally I managed to find a source for the U-Pol acid/etch primer. I have been on the look out for it for a long time. They had it in spray cans or in liquid which can be brushed on. Took a while to decide which I should get and finally took the spray can option. I hope it was the correct decision! This place can also mix paint for me if I give them the RAL number and put it in spray cans. That's another problem solved.

Which brings me to today's call for assistance.

As this Tiger is circa June 1944, I was wondering what colour scheme I should choose. I don't think at that time there were any Tigers in North Africa so sand colour is out of the question. Could somebody point me to a source on the internet which might show colour schemes for that period?

Vince

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Stephen White » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:49 pm

Vince

Upol Acid 8 in spray cans is a good option.

As for colour schemes, it's either easy or intriguingly complicated. Simple is a few cans of the Tamiya TS 46 Light Sand - not a million miles from authentic but not accurate. Complicated starts here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6692&p=58624&hilit= ... elb#p58624

Note that the RAL standard changed post war, so you can't directly translate from the wartime standards to the contemporary. Also note that very few, if any, of the model colours which purport to be accurate are in practice. There are also paint suppliers who support the restoration and re-enactment communities, whose products tend to be more accurate. There are a number of sources of information, including these:

https://ak-interactive.com/product/real-colors-of-wwii/

and:

https://www.abebooks.com/Wehrmacht-Camo ... 8222135/bd

The Missing Lynx Axis Discussion Forum is useful:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207

As is:

https://forum.axishistory.com/

There are others.

The latter is as near definitive as can be today, although there is a group in Germany working on a book with original colour cards.

The campaign in Africa ended for the Axis in Spring 1943 in Tunisia. Some Tropen (tropical) schemes were sported by Tigers deployed to Italy and Russia, so you don't entirely have to rule out those colours. By June 1944, the standard in force was a tri-tonal scheme of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, as a factory applied basecoat, with overlay of Olivgruen RAL 6003 and Rotbraun RAL 8017 applied at unit level, using pastes diluted in the field. Note that Dunkelgelb became progressively darker as the thread above describes. From Aug 1944, the three colour camouflage started to be applied at the factories. June 1944 is late in the Tiger's career, production ending in Aug.

You can really get stuck into Wehrmacht and SS AFV colours, hours of debate online, stacks of self-appointed experts, lots of dodgy products and nothing really certain. Which is a long-winded way of saying that it's your model and you should do what pleases you.

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Vince Cutajar » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:36 pm

Thanks Stephen for a very comprehensive reply.
Stephen White wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:49 pm
Note that the RAL standard changed post war, so you can't directly translate from the wartime standards to the contemporary.
When you mentioned for example "Dunkelgelb RAL 7028"; is that RAL number a contemporary number?

Vince

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Stephen White » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:30 pm

Vince, all my references to specific RAL numbers were from the wartime standards. I don’t have any information about how the contemporary standard may differ. If you want accurate, you need to start with colour chips or swatches. The two references (AK And Chory books both have chips which purport to be accurate). If you don’t want to go down the paint mixing route, my recommendation would be to use the Xtracrylics range from Hannants in UK. They are probably the closest. Vallejo, Tamiya and the AK so called Real Colours differ significantly from the chips I’ve seen.

Hope that helps.

Stephen

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Vince Cutajar » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:26 pm

I have been researching more about the RAL colours and found out that Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 is actually an obsolete number. I wonder what RAL number people are using instead of 7028.

My problem is that I can't get liquid paints or spray cans from abroad through the postal system due to postal restrictions on these items. So my best bet is to try and match the colour with the colour cards that the paint mixers might have. Need to think about this further.

In the meantime today I received this from Liam through the post from the other side of the world.
Tiger 022.JPG
Rubber antenna base
Vince

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Stephen White » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:15 pm

Vince, there is a way. RAL 7028 was assigned to Dunkelgelb (actually to the second, production standard colour) in 1943 on the obsolete RAL 840R standard. There is no direct equivalent in the contemporary RAL 8000 standard.

However, I have the Chory and AK Real Colours of WW2 printed chips and an iPad app called iColorKit. It's a very clever bit of software which, amongst other things, allows you to scan a chip and establish the modern colour notation, in a number of standards.

Can you find out what standard your paint mixers use? The main ones are the US Federal Standard 595c, British Standard 381c and maybe RGB proportions. Once we know what standard your mixer can use, I'll have a go at scanning the chips and giving you the notation to use.

Incidentally, the same company which developed iColorKit, also does an app called iModelKit, which is brilliant. It has a number of very useful features, including an excellent mixing tool, which allows you to match a colour (eg from a chip) to a mix of paints, including all the common model paint ranges, oils, pigments etc. If you're at all interested in accurate model colour, the two apps are very useful.

http://www.id6.ch/id6_WebSite_en/iModelKit_v2.html

Stephen

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Adrian Harris » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:49 pm

> allows you to scan a chip and establish the modern colour notation, in a number of standards

Sounds like an interesting app.

As an aside, have you tried scanning the chip in different lighting types (daylight, tungsten, fluorescent) to see if it skews the results ?

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant

Post by Stephen White » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:20 pm

Yes, Adrian, it is very sensitive to the lighting conditions, so it needs care. You get a real time readout of the RGB values as you move the camera, so you can soon see the median values and take the scan when the numbers are stable. I don’t think the small inaccuracy inherent in that method is significant. It will also give a readout from digital photos and internet pages. The trick for known colours is to take readings from different sources and compare. I’ve done that with the British colours such as SCC15 and Deep Bronze Green.

The mixer feature is also very useful. You can set the scanned colour value above as the reference and then compare it with most of the common model paint brands. It’s quite illuminating to see how far out some of the so-called original colour paints are.

Stephen

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Adrian Harris » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:08 pm

Sounds good.

> It’s quite illuminating to see how far out some of the so-called original colour paints are.

I wonder if that's edging over into "scale colour" territory ?

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Robert E Morey » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:44 pm

Hi Vince - I'm following along your Tiger build as well. Nice details you have added! I at am about at the same stage as you - although my Tiger has taken a back seat to a scratch build project for a while. Keep at it - Nice Work!
Bob

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Vince Cutajar » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:01 am

Hi Robert and thanks for having a look and the words of encouragement. It's good to hear that somebody else is building the "new" Tiger 1. It doesn't feel so lonely anymore. It is my first Armortek kit and although there is nothing complicated in the build it feels more daunting than I expected. I am taking it real slow as I don't want to make any expensive mistakes.

Did you encounter any problems in your build so far? Do you have any tips for me?

I followed the assembly manual in the trial build so far. I still need to disassemble it and start the real build. I am considering changing slightly the build sequence. Instead of starting with the floor I am thinking of starting by bolting the suspension bars to the sides of the lower hull. Then bolt the rear and front plates to the side plates and then finally fitting the floor to the suspension bar.

Vince

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Vince Cutajar » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:11 am

Yesterday I finished all the parts for the four bump stops.
Tiger 023.JPG
Bump stop parts
It is true what they say about having a problem and sleeping on it. I can still vividly remember the dreams I had in trying out various methods of soldering the parts together. This morning I cleaned up the parts and used solder cream to soft solder. For heating the part I used a blowlamp with one of those disposable canisters. For the second one I thought I would try some thin electronics solder instead which gave better results.

At the moment the parts are pickling in some white vinegar to remove all the flux.

Vince

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Vince Cutajar » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:23 pm

Here it is. Finally finished. Don't want to do this again. I made the mounting holes 4mm diameter instead of 3mm as a 4mm nut looks better. Now to get some castle nuts.
Tiger 024.JPG
Brass bump stop with solid rubber
Not perfect but close enough. Paint is good to hide all the sins.

Most probably next I will start on the disassembly and do the modifications on the suspension bars.

Vince

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Re: Vince's Tiger 1 late variant 2017

Post by Robert E Morey » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:05 am

Vince
I'm building the first generation Late Tiger 1. It should be similar to yours. Your bump stops look great! How did you make or where did you find the rubber stops? Fantastic work on those!

As for advice - Keep at it and finish it! They are fun kits when finished! But easy to get side tracked from and stalled out <build wise>.

I'm curious to see what improvements were made to the road wheels. I spent months on those detailing them.

I wonder too is the rear deck lowered? That is going to be a big job on mine.

My <Tiger> is progressing slow - the 1/6th scale war will be over by the time mine is done! LOL.
Bob

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