Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

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andyquirot
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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by andyquirot » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:56 pm

Thanks for that Adrian
But it looks like they on the correct way round. I am going to start striping out all the bits of the tank so i can put it on its back over next weekend. Not looking forward to that.
Regards Andy Quirot

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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Wael Hazin » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:19 pm

Hello all,

I also have one of the first tigers and having lots of problems with wheels binding. Here are some of the questions I have:

1) What I don’t seem to understand is where the 2mm washers exactly should go?
2) should the wheel spacers spin freely when everything is tighten up? I got the wheels spinning freely but the spacers are not and I feel like they should too.
3) the inner most wheel according to the drawing I have(not sure it’s the correct one, dated 1/8/03) show the bearing and then the wheel going on the axle, if so, the wheel binds heavily against the suspension arm. I am almost certain this drawing is either wrong or does not apply to the tank I have. But I have seen the newer( I think) tiger inner wheels do indeed go on bearing first. Please see attached pic

Any help is greatly appreciated

Thanks
Wael
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Adrian Harris
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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Adrian Harris » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:10 pm

Not exactly an answer to your question, but do you have machined swing arms (left) or cast ones (right) ?

DSCF2804a.jpg

Some of the cast ones were very inaccurately drilled and tapped, which results in the wheel axles being out of alignment:

DSCF2801a.jpg

Due to the tolerances in the suspension set up of these early Tigers, if the axles are like this, it doesn't matter what you do to the wheels, they will interfere with each other.

NB: All Tiger kits since these first production ones use CNC machined swing arms and hence the axles should be correctly aligned.

Adrian.
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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Wael Hazin » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:01 am

Hi Adrian:

Thank you for the reply! My tank uses the cast swing arms. But I did buy 6 machined ones because I broke one while drilling the swing arm/axle for a pin to ensure they can’t come lose. What do you suggest I do to try and get things aligned? And should the wheel spacers spin freely when an axle is fully tighten? Again, your help is greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Wael

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Adrian Harris
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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Adrian Harris » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:16 am

If you have any particular wheels which are fouling the swing arms, I would check the angle of the axle and compare it to other to see if you have a problem with that swing arm. If you do, you will need to replace it with a new one from Armortek.

I cannot say for sure but I would have thought it would be better for the spacers to rotate on the axles with the wheels, as that would be steel on steel, rather than being fixed to the the axles and rubbing against the aluminium of the wheels. If the spacers are not turning, you may have corrosion within the spacer or on the axle.

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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Wael Hazin » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:21 am

Adrian,

The spacers spin freely when things are NOT tighten up. There is no corrosion on the axles or spacers. This only happens when I tighten the back wheel, spacer, and front wheel with the M4 bolt going into the axle. This means the inner ring of the bearings is pushing against the spacer and to the rear wheel inner bearing ring to the nub on the swing arm. The question is should the spacers be machined down(length wise) so that there is some space between the inner bearing ring, spacer and swing arm nub? Because I can’t think of anything else to do make the spacers spin freely when things are tighten up.

As to the rear wheels, the first 2 pics show the wheels as I currently have them where there is no binding to the swing arm. Note there is no spacing either between the swing arm and wheel(pic 2 vs pic 4)

When I flip the wheel and put it on per the assembly instructions I have(again, not sure if correct one), notice on the last 2 pics the wheel binds and the big gap between the wheel bearing and swing arm. I don’t think this is due to the axles holes being off, but rather the concave face of the wheel. Therefore, the first 2 pics really show how these wheels should be installed.

Again, any help is greatly appreciated. This has been driving me nuts for days and nights. So please someone that has gone through this, please help. I have read many posts but they are too old and the pics are no longer available and I couldn’t find answers to my specific questions.
3C63D93A-69E0-48E0-BF44-482DCB4E0F45.jpeg
18493FA6-E396-44BD-AE26-A1690B59AEBB.jpeg
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Steen Vøler
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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Steen Vøler » Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:50 am

Hi Wael,
The first two pictures of the wheels are the correct position according to the 2003 manual.
If you want to install them the opposite way, which is really the right way according to the real tiger wheel setup, you will need to add a large spacer almost the width of a bearing til the axle before sliding the wheel til the axle arm.
I have done this to the old tiger I bought from you actually.
Will upload later the page from the 2003 manual with the instructions of the wheel installation. This only goes for the first production of the 2003 tiger.
Cheers and good luck

Steen
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Steen Vøler
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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Steen Vøler » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 am

The 2mm wash goes to the axle before installing the double inner wheel

But, this only applies to the double wheels where the faulty boring of the distance for the bearings.

I do have some documentation of this error and the wash somewhere. Will see if I can get it to you.

Cheers Steen
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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Wael Hazin » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 am

Hi Steen


Good to hear from you and thanks for your help. I really don’t have a preference which way they go, I just want to make sure the wheels are aligned correctly before moving on. Do you have any input on my other 2 questions? I look forward to your response.

Regards,
Wael

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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Steen Vøler » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:37 am

Hi Wael,
Emailed you the very first 2003 Manuel. It's a 15 mb scan so I hope you can receive it in your mailbox.

Related to the spacer question my best guess is that the spacer needs to be moving together with the axle.

When you tighten the bolt on the axle the spacers all the way along the axle, should be pressed together, so that the only thing that spins, is the outer parts of the bearings.

And here is where the brass washers come into play because when you on these wheels tighten the bolt, it press the wheel inner part to the swingarm and prevents the wheels ability to spin freely.
This appears to the double inner wheels. Here the brass washer installed on the axle before the double wheel, gives the wheel the distance from swingarm so that it does not lock against the swingarm when tightening the wheels with the bolt

I will make some pictures for you later today. Just need to get to my spareparts on the loft :D

Cheers Steen
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Steen

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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Peter Silcock » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:47 am

Wael Hazin wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:39 am
Hi Steen


Good to hear from you and thanks for your help. I really don’t have a preference which way they go, I just want to make sure the wheels are aligned correctly before moving on. Do you have any input on my other 2 questions? I look forward to your response.

Regards,
Wael
Wael- I found, as did others at the time, that the first edition of the Tiger was quite difficult to set up axle wise, without everything binding up. You aren't doing anything wrong as such, only what everyone else came across! Some owners machined different spacers up with a narrower diameter and large flanges at both ends so that the wheels were supported better and everything rotated freely. I restored one and bought a load of various .5mm, 1mm and 2mm shims of the correct id and od to provide clearance where necessary. Greasing the axles also helps. Even then it took what seemed like hours to set up. Use a long straight edge as you build the axles to ensure that the wheels are aligned with each other. You will find that when you begin running the model the axles and wheels will free up somewhat.

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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by simon_manning » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:13 am

christmas greetings wael, peter and steen are correct, you are not doing anything wrong, you have to play around with these older suspension set-ups to make them work, add spacer's to some wheel axels, reduce wheel spacer's on a lathe, if my memory serves me right i also added some extra bearings in the wheels to stop the wheel wobble, just approach it without the instructions confusing you, as if you had none, and you have to make it work, once fixed they run lovely and for years, keep at it and relax, the answer will come, regards simon manning.

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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Wael Hazin » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:21 pm

Thank you Steen, I received the assembly instructions. And thanks to the rest of the guys for the words of encouragement. I think I know what I need to do now but with the exception of the spacers. Steen answer seemed to have confused me. Again, Should they rotate once everything is tighten up? Steen, you mention “they should move with the axle”. I’m not sure what that means. My concern is that if the spacers don’t rotate freely when everything is tighten up and one axle/swing arm gets compressed and makes contact with the adjacent spacer, it will prevent the wheel from rotating if the spacer is fixed and doesn’t rotate. I’m sorry, but this is a very import fact I need to get right before moving on.

The second issue I would like to get advice on is when I align all the wheels, I assume I should align to the idler wheel. I assume the older wheel is aligned to the sprocket. I am trying to think ahead and mitigate any potential issue such as having all the wheels aligned but misaligned with the sprocket and/or the idler wheel.

Again, thank you for all your help.

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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Phil Woollard » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:18 pm

Wael, just worry about lining up the centre double wheels, the idler and the sprocket ( using the track as a guide) the inner and outer wheels shouldn't really have any influence on this alignment, you will need to work on the wheel spacers but basically the inner race of each bearing and the spacers are immobile, they become one when the m4 is tightened up, the wheels and outer race must be free to rotate. When you tighten the m4 the wheels should be free not locked up. Use thin washers or armortek shims to get the spacing right. 8)
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Re: Tiger 1 tracks slipping and comming off sprockets

Post by Wael Hazin » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:47 pm

Thank you so much Phil. I completely understand what to do now and will follow your advice. But I am still a little perplexed about the spacers not being able to rotate because if one axle is compressed enough to make contact to an adjacent spacer, the immobilized spacers will prevent the compressed axle wheel from rotating. Am I missing something? I am really sorry, but I am just trying to understand to make sure I am not missing anything important to the wheel functionality.

P.S

I am following your chieftain build as I still have mine in its boxes waiting to finish the tiger and make room. Your are truly a master at building these things.

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