Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Daniel Scholefield » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:34 pm

They had quite a few...
12376375_972055629547673_7733603560042391160_n.jpg
Mark IV No. 35 aka. L9 Lightning III

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Stephen White » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:39 pm

Looks like they also had drones to film them for Facebook.....

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Steve Stuart » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:22 pm

P2044427.JPG
Tie Down
I have now produced from my sketches of Lodestar in Brussels a rough drawing of the Tie Down using measurements that I took at the time. Unfortunately the light level was dire so this is the best photo that I have:
P8193942.JPG
Photo
If anyone is interested and I can provide a hard copy of the drawing.
Steve

Oliver Brüninghaus
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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Oliver Brüninghaus » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:59 pm

Chris,

To bring the two Beutetanks together one thank ought to cross the channel. It would be a lovely but rare „rendezvous“.

Yes the Tankorgad Publications are very useful. The best I could found.

As I build my Beute Tank with the drivers hatch and Kompass fitted, the selection which tank it will be narrows a little bit.
The further limitation to my tank is late Buntfarben with iron crosses. That means that Fritz doesn’t fit and Mariechen either. Maybe Tank 1 Abt 12 will be choice. It’s still an interesting search.


Steve

thank you for sharing this useful and perfect information.
To avoid any confusion I deleted my sketch.

Greetings Oliver

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Chris Hall » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:34 pm

Oliver -

I can suggest an appropriate rendezvous - the Fort de la Pompelle, near Reims, France, on 1 June 2018. That's the centenary of when 'Liesel' was knocked out at one of the largest German tank actions of WW1. I could imagine that the EU media could get quite interested too, from a reconciliation angle (totally unnecessary to us Armortek junkies, of course, but that's the sort of thing news feeds get excited about :wink:).

Google Maps says that's about 360 miles for me - how much for you ? And, of course, it gives you a couple more years to complete your model, which is sounding much more detailed than mine !

Steve / All -

I've been working on the issue of getting tie-downs, lamps and even spuds modelled and cast (in white metal) in 1/6th scale. I have various contacts working on it, and I'm waiting for all the threads to come together before I can reveal the finished picture (he said enigmatically) ........ bear with me !

All the best,

Chris
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & 2 x limbers (45RA, Korea 1951)
M3 Lee (25th Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Rolls-Royce Armoured Car (10(RN)AMB, German E. Africa 1916)

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Oliver Brüninghaus » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:26 pm

Hello Chris

You lucky, only 360 miles (580 kilometres) to Reims........
From northern Germany it takes roughly 800 kilometres (500 mi) but no ferry needed.
I’m not sure if all the news will get the message right but the idea is charming.

Wow – accessories cast in metal – that sounds very promising!

I thought about the spuds. If they will fit on the tracks, the material should be very rugged to stand the weight of the tank in rough terrain. But thats more a „high end“ question.
If there will be some detailed items to fill the box like spuds or used petrol cans e.g. that’s a great outlook.


Oliver

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Steve Stuart » Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:33 pm

Oliver I put my sketch up so as to inspire others to refine the information. In the same way your drawings helped inspire me to go and compile my drawing. Thank you for that prompt!
Perhaps a rendezvous in Brussels sooner, might be a good idea, so as to be able collate information from all directions. My wife would be happy to visit Brussels again, a city that has a lot to offer, not just a Mark IV Tank! Chris might agree 8)
Steve

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Oliver Brüninghaus » Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:59 pm

Hello Steve,

No problem at all. My sketch wasn’t anything like good as your original measurements.
The great log of your built I still very helpful for my adventurous journey through rivets, bolts, details and modifications. It`s A Long Way to Tipperary … … …

I always wanted to visit the „Atomium“ sometimes, but never found the right occasion.
Maybe your proposal is the right initial spark to pick up pace.


Does anyone have an idea about the function of this hook at the inner sides of the front horns?
Maybe a temporarily mount for headlights?

Greetings Oliver
hook.jpg

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Steve Stuart » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:28 pm

Hi Oliver
This photo is one for Chris, I half think it is related to the Fascine mounting and release. I have strong hope that Chris will provide an answer that will enlighten in due course!
Before I started the Mark IV, I said it was going to be built out of the box, but that has not happened as more things present themselves to developed apon! The more information that comes to light the better for understanding of the Tank and its role in history. So thank you for more complexity :)
Best wishes Steve

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Chris Hall » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:45 pm

Oliver / Steve -

I'm afraid I'm going to have to let you down this time :oops:

I've never seen that bracket before ! I'm sure it's nothing to do with the fascine, as it doesn't look strong enough (as well as facing the wrong way). And I've never seen any evidence that Mark IV's carried front headlights (which, if mounted on this bracket, would point downwards), which would be useless in daylight and go against the whole ethos of setting up at night for a surprise attack.

It might help to know the source of the picture, in particular the date and the tank number / battalion. Otherwise, it may just be a local jury-rig for some unexplained purpose.

Like Steve says, it's great that we're turning up all these oddities - but I doubt we'll ever come up with the ultimate, definitive Mark IV !

On other news ....... I had a crazy busy day in the Bovington Archives yesterday, which included a close examination of an actual track spud ! I've taken all the measurements I can, which I now need to write up and send to my tame CAD guru for decent drawings (I'll point him at your tie down measurements as well, Steve). Then to find a 3D printer, and then to get my metal casting guru to cast them up ...... give me time, and we'll get there !

I'll post up some more information over the weekend, when I get the time to collate it all.

All the best,

Chris
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & 2 x limbers (45RA, Korea 1951)
M3 Lee (25th Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Rolls-Royce Armoured Car (10(RN)AMB, German E. Africa 1916)

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Oliver Brüninghaus » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:26 pm

Chris -

At „Shapeways" they offer a new printing technology for Aluminium.
That could be helpful for the track spuds.


Chris / Steve -

Yesterday evening I revised some pictures I collect from the web. Some tanks shows the hooks others don’t.
At Lodestar III, Grit, Liberty and others the mounts were fitted.
The movie about the MK IV that crashed a car presents some items that could be headlights.
The Landships Forum contains one post about this item and leads in the same direction astonishingly.
Headlights.jpg

The headlights seemed to pointed downwards to illuminate the road direct in front of the tank. About the slow speed that should be enough light to avoid to lose the path.
Headlight_sc.jpg
Maybe these mysterious headlights were useful to deliver the tanks to central workshop in France for entraining and detraining.
A lot of troop movement happened by night unfortunately on crowded cobbled roads with unpaved borders. In this situation it was essential that the thanks don’t slipped off the road and jammed all traffic.
Could this be a reason to use the headlights in minor dangerous sections?

Otherwise one picture shows a Mk V among a group of soldiers in the field fitted with „Headlights“.
An irritating found.
MKV.jpg
lost in speculations
Oliver
Last edited by Oliver Brüninghaus on Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Chris Hall » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:17 pm

Michael Cecil wrote:Gents

I know we all keep referring to it as the 'spud box' but I wonder, particularly in the light of that last image of the APG tanks with the axe mount inside, if the box was simply a general stowage box? It would seem that spuds crashing about inside would damage the axe handle, and probably the canvas cover, and why have a canvas cover at all to cover spuds: they are hardly prone to weather effects. Has anyone discovered a CES list for a MkIV that might provide some clues as to where it was all stowed?

Mike
Mike -

I hadn't forgotten this, and now I think I'm in a position to answer, at least in part.

I've certainly seen contemporary references to 'spud box' and seen pictures of how they rack up when not in use (from studying Bovington's records, it would seem that a special wireless order was issued before action if spuds were to be fitted !). Having now seen one, they would be stacked up like a row of books with the shoe against the rear plate of the box and the arm pointing forwards. I don't know if they were then tied down or just left to rattle. It may be that, with the shoe hooking up under the tensioning bar that I've mentioned before (to stop the unditching rails from flexing), that was deemed sufficient to stop them sliding around. There would then be plenty of room in the front of the box for spades, tools etc.

The axe is a tricky one. It was certainly mounted on brackets on the rear plate of the box. I think the brackets would have protected it from being too damaged. But, of course, how do you get to it when the spuds are there ? And was it a full canvas cover ? I've got a vague feeling it was more of a net, but I'm not sure where that idea is from.

I don't know what a CES List is, not having served under the Colours ! But I did find an interesting picture at Bovington recently. Nearly all this stuff, though, would have been kept in lockers inside the tank itself, usually between the inner and outer frames.

And, finally, I'm going to have to concede victory to Steve :shock: about the angled exhaust cover. While the WW1 Hall at Bovington is being reorganised, and is a lot emptier, I took this picture of Excellent's spud box:

Image

No tie-downs, but the cover is definitely angled .... so perhaps he'll now tell us how to do it ! Incidentally, you'll notice that they've now put a fascine on top - a project for another day :).

All the best,

Chris
Last edited by Chris Hall on Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & 2 x limbers (45RA, Korea 1951)
M3 Lee (25th Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Rolls-Royce Armoured Car (10(RN)AMB, German E. Africa 1916)

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Chris Hall » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:26 pm

Oliver -

You're producing some compelling evidence about that bracket and headlights :). That lower picture, though, is either a Mark I or Mark II. And, when approaching the start line, the tanks were guided by white tapes laid out in advance - headlights would have given the game away ! So I'm attracted to the idea that they were fitted for movement 'behind the lines'.

The search for a definitive answer continues ! :?

All the best,

Chris
Mark IV (Liesel, Abteilung 14, France 1918)
Morris Quad, 25-pdr & 2 x limbers (45RA, Korea 1951)
M3 Lee (25th Dragoons, Burma 1944)
Rolls-Royce Armoured Car (10(RN)AMB, German E. Africa 1916)

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by Michael Cecil » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:13 pm

Hi Chris,

CES = Complete Equipment Schedule, the list of spares, tools, weapons, etc that were issued with the vehicle to make it battleworthy. It is a post-Second World War term. During the Second World War, the list was known as a VOL, Vehicle Outfit List. I've no idea what it may have been called in the First World War.

The image you provided is, from what I can see, an illustration of what would comprise most of the tank's CES, so the accompanying listing visible at the top of the image may well be the First World War version of a CES. From my experience with a MkIV Female, much of what I can see was stowed inside the vehicle: ammunition boxes inside sponsons, tool box below the crank handle and so on.

The spuds are, I think you'll agree, unwieldy things, real back breakers, so their sheer weight may have helped keep them in the box, especially when stacked and inter-leaved.

Interesting diagram: would love to see the table above it in such a way I could read it. I'd better visit Bovington's archive!

Regards

Mike

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Re: Mark IV Spud Box - more complex than it looks ...

Post by IAN HINKS » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:26 pm

Oh dear, I have to apologise, I find I have been sitting on a copy of the CES in a pack of information I got from Bovington years ago. There are also a set of detailed drawings with the packs. I got the MkI, MkIV, MkV and some V* stuff I think. We will just have to be careful as some drawings could be in the wrong set. I will try and dig them out this weekend and see what could be of use here. I also have copyright concerns, but we are all supporters of Bovington so I hope they won't mind a little sharing amongst us.
Ian.

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