Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

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Adrian Harris
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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Adrian Harris » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:22 pm

Chris.

Good to see Flaming Fire II coming along, and just in time for me :lol:

Going back to the six extra rivets you added to the front horns...

On the Bovington and Ashford tanks, there appears to be an additional extra plate between the cab and the vertical row of rivets on the kit. It looks to be the same on Lodestar III but I haven't found any hi-res images yet.

On Flirt II, there is just a plate under the six extra rivets.

Is this just a factory deviance do you think, or an upgrade ?

Also, on Lodestar III, the rear cover plates which have the additional part for a bow shackle are the same on the inside and outside of the horns. This is the same in the Fletcher Osprey book in the image of Mark IVs under construction. Other tanks seem to have the ones on the insides of the horns on the idler cover plate. This would make sense as it would prevent the cables from rubbing on the beam rails.
However, if all four shackle points were in use, it's likely that the cables would all be the same length, so it would make sense for the shackle points to all be at the same location.

Idle thoughts :lol: :lol:

Adrian.
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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Steve Stuart » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:10 pm

Adrian, I fitted the extra plates on the bow, with extra rivets as well. There is also the issue of the headlight brackets....
Have fun! Steve

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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Oliver Brüninghaus » Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:07 pm

Hi Cris,

I took the various inspirations from the great builds here in the forum and choose this solution for the headlight brackets.

Regards
Oliver

MKIV3a.jpg

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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Pete Nash » Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:37 am

Hi everybody.
I find the previous posts on the forum most intriguing and helpful.
I have recently acquired Armortek Mk.IV No.52, and like others would like to match it with the real No.52.
Does anybody have information on Mk.IV no.52 or can tell me where I can go to find the information.
I wont be starting it until the new year when my Workshop extension is finished, at present I am building the 25 pdr, Limber and Morris Quad in the lounge and kitchen (wife is in a nursing home so can't complain :lol: )so I have time to gather information.

If anyone lives in the Chelmsford/Southend-on-sea area, I am a tour guide at Stow Maries great war aerodrome, the only one in existence that is in original condition though in the process of being restored. So guess where it will be making appearences when my Mk.IV is finished.

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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Chris Hall » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:11 pm

Pete -

Welcome to the Band of Brigands ! We're a friendly and helpful bunch in this corner of the Armortek Empire - that's because we have the best tank, of course :wink:. The kit is a wonderful thing but, as with all Armortek models, there's loads of scope to delve into the history and take converting just as far as you want. If you need help, just ask !

You're already bitten by the bug, though, as you want an historical tie-in. But can I check something first ? Are you sure yours is no. 52 ? Mine's no. 50, and I thought that was the 'last of line' :?. If the box is smudged, it's stamped into one of the inside frames in Box 1, which is definitive. But that's a minor issue.

Mark IV tanks had a unique four-digit serial number, which identifies the factory that built each one. I assume that, by wanting a '52', you'll be referring to the Battalion number, eg. A52 for A Battalion, through to L52 for L Battalion. I can help you there, to a degree, if the records exist. But, before then, you've got a very important choice to make - Male or Female ? Everyone builds a Male (I think it's a substitute thing :lol:) - I only know of one other Female being built, apart from my two. Based on that, I can go through my Library and suggest some possibilities (although 52 is a high number).

Finger out, though ! It's only a year until the Cambrai Centenary, and it would be good to get as many Mark IV's as possible out for that .... and don't forget all the Big Shows you'll be able to attend, like Tankfest.

All the best,

Chris
Mark IV's #50 (Liesel) and #30 (Flaming Fire II)
Morris Quad #34, limber and 25-pdr
M3 Lee on the way !

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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Armortek » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:26 am

Hi Chris

If Peter has no '52' this would have likely been purchased at an 'open day' as a special, made up of spares and overrun components. It would have been supplied without a certificate or guarantee.

Gill
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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Pete Nash » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:38 am

DSC_0092.JPG
Thanks for the information Gill, It explains a few things.
I bought the tank from Simon who lives in Totton, Hants. It was advertised on the Forum and I took it at face value.
DSC_0092.JPG
He told me that he purchased it, with other Armortek tanks, from a guy who was giving up/Or had died - can't remember which now. (its an age thing). He had a good selection of Armortek tanks in display cases.
The Mk.IV was not boxed in original Armortek Boxes but cardboard fruit boxes. I didn't do a full inventory check but what was there was in 'sealed' and marked bags.
When I got home I looked through the instruction but found no Certificate. Now I know why. I will do a full inventory check soon and hope that it is all there.

A side plate is clearly marked ARMORTEK 2014 52

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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Pete Nash » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:46 am

Hi Chris

Thank you for your offer.

I would be grateful for your input and some suggestions as to what I should model my tank on.

As yet I haven't decided on a Male or female, I was tending towards the male (bigger guns :D ) but can be persuaded if there is a good or interesting example which is where other peoples knowledge comes in.

Pete

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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Chris Hall » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:02 pm

Gill -

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not going to cry myself to sleep if I don't have the 'last of line' (Liesel is too precious to me in any event !), but it is a nice touch. Is there a No. 51 drifting around out there, by the way ?

Pete -

However you got it, the Mark IV's are all good. Let us know when you've checked the inventory. Life's a bit hectic at the moment but, when I get the chance, I'll investigate a few possibles and send you a PM to think about. I already know the one I'm going to recommend, which has an interesting history and lots of existing photographs to support extra modelling detail ..... and it's a Female .....

All the best,

Chris
Mark IV's #50 (Liesel) and #30 (Flaming Fire II)
Morris Quad #34, limber and 25-pdr
M3 Lee on the way !

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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Chris Hall » Mon May 01, 2017 12:43 pm

Build time: 50.5 hours

Elapsed time: Almost 18 months ! Is it always like this when you've already got one to play with ? I'm having so much fun driving and tinkering with Liesel and the Panther (name to be revealed soon :wink:) that I've somewhat neglected poor old Flaming Fire II. But, coming home all enthused from Tiger Day, and with the Cambrai centenary looming, it's time to crack on. And, actually, I'm quite surprised at how far I've actually gone .....

Firstly, she does at least exist in 3 dimensions, with all the track runs fitted:

Inner frame 3 - front small.jpg
Inner frame 4 -rear small.jpg
Significant alterations from the build instructions are re-angling the rear mud chutes (as I mentioned in the Liesel build) and the fitting of the extra armour inside the front horns. I'm indebted to Oliver and Adrian for pointing this out - another of those things I couldn't see for looking ! But it's a clear feature on all the WW1 rhomboidals, from the Mark I to the Mark IX (so how did I miss it then ? :shock:).

First step is to knock out that rectangular pattern of 6 rivets I told you to put in earlier (sorry about that :oops:). As any marks are covered by the new plates, I knocked off the heads with an angle grinder - then the pins just push through. Then I did a cardboard template to enable me to cut the new plates out of sheet aluminium (much easier to work than steel, for those of us who lack the necessary metallurgical skills). The dimensions are quite odd - this is what I came up with:

Glacis Plate - side armour - dimensions.jpg
(any gaps will be filled with putty before painting)

And the end result looks like this:

Glacis Plate - side armour small.jpg
(the two small angled holes are for the headlight bracket, which would seem to be a permanent fixture as well, although the headlight seems to have been removed before action for the Mark IV onwards)

The inner frame assembly now needs the bolt heads filling, and then some serious painting (etch primer, red lead, white internals) before the cab and rear assemblies (which are finished) are bolted in.

While all that's happening, I need to finish off the outer plates, where all the armour is. During the Liesel build I mentioned a 'bolt line' which (well, duh !) requires bolts rather than rivets (assuming that (a) you like riveting, and (b) you over-engineer it by putting in as few glued rivets as possible). As I never thought I'd be going down this road again, I didn't keep records of where the bolt line is ! So I've had to work it out again, and here it is, marked in red, for posterity (and those of you still staring at a pile of unopened Armortek boxes):

Outer armour (front) - marked small.jpg
Outer armour (middle) - marked small.jpg
Outer armour (rear) - marked small.jpg
I've assumed it's obvious that you don't do anything (yet) with the holes where the drive covers (EK0324 to 326) go, and the smaller threaded holes near the bottom where the roller angles go (Stages 20 and 21).

So that's the story so far. Serious painting and riveting to be undertaken. Once that's done it's a gentle ride home (he said, quickly) with only the rollers, drive sprockets, tracks, roof panels and sponsons to go ..... and then painting and marking, of course :lol:.

Alongside all this is the historical research. A visit to the National Archives at Kew beckons, to see a document that might, just might, confirm the name of Flaming Fire II's commander, and hopefully even the crew. That would really bring the whole project to life for me.

All the best,

Chris
Last edited by Chris Hall on Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mark IV's #50 (Liesel) and #30 (Flaming Fire II)
Morris Quad #34, limber and 25-pdr
M3 Lee on the way !

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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Daniel Scholefield » Mon May 01, 2017 4:31 pm

fitting of the extra armour inside the rear horns
First I've heard of this but looking at your photos that new plate is mounted at the front and will be inside the body? What am I missing?
Mark IV No. 35 aka. L9 Lightning III

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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Chris Hall » Mon May 01, 2017 5:17 pm

Oops - good spot, Daniel ! It doesn't matter how often you proof-read something, a mistake always slips through ....

Front horns, of course. Duly corrected. :oops:

The plates are on the outside of the inner face of the front horns (if that makes sense). In front of the cab. My personal theory is that they were a throwback to Marks I and II, when the fuel tanks were in the front horns. I can't see any other reason for them ....
Mark IV's #50 (Liesel) and #30 (Flaming Fire II)
Morris Quad #34, limber and 25-pdr
M3 Lee on the way !

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Re: Mark IV No. 30 – here we go again ............

Post by Adrian Harris » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:09 pm

I've just been looking at creating these front armour pieces and unfortunately, it's not possible to create them from just the lengths of the sides.

Is the angle between the 9.7cm and 8.5cm sides 90 degrees ?

Adrian.
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The Christmas Rivet !

Post by Chris Hall » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:03 am

The Christmas Rivet small.jpg
Loads of symbolism here - a small insignificant thing, produced in a shed on Christmas Day, that adds strength to all that surrounds it.

Or perhaps it's just a sign that I really need to crack on with my second Mark IV build ? :lol:

Merry Christmas to all, and may you have an enjoyable day without feeling at the end of it that, like the Christmas Rivet, you've had your head smashed in !

Best wishes to my fellow owners, builders, designers and producers,

Chris
Mark IV's #50 (Liesel) and #30 (Flaming Fire II)
Morris Quad #34, limber and 25-pdr
M3 Lee on the way !

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