Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Forum for Armortek Owners to Meet, chat and share knowledge. You are advised to check 'official advice' before carrying out any modifications.
Mike Conley
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:03 pm
Location: Catlettsburg, Kentucky USA
Has liked: 133 times
Been Liked: 139 times

Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Mike Conley » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:27 pm

This is a stupid thought but I've been curious about this for years. We all know how real tanks will rock a little backwards and forwards when the tank stops or accelerates quickly because of the momentum weight shift on the suspension.

I've wondered IF on our Armortek tanks, if the front/rear stiffer torsion bars were switched to the center and the thinner torsion bars moved to the front/rear, would that make any noticeable difference...

One detriment to this 'wonderment' is our tanks probably don't go fast enough that, if suddenly the 'brakes' were quickly put on or a quick acceleration, would there be enough momentum to pitch the weight forward or rock back any?

I know this is crazy but I just had to ask and see what you all think...

Mike (the one in Kentucky!)
Armortek Models: King Tiger, Tiger 1, Panther G, Panzer IV, Sd Kfz 7, Sd Kfz 222, M4A3 Sherman, M3 Lee.

User avatar
Brian Ostlind
Posts: 915
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:56 am
Location: Oregon, USA
Has liked: 467 times
Been Liked: 631 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Brian Ostlind » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:46 pm

The Panther I have rocks just like you described. It has a jerky-er motor and it will even skid to a stop. Speed and power have to do with it but also if I stick my foot on the hull and apply pressure the suspension is pretty bouncy!

No idea how it was assembled or what makes it different from any other tank.
epic

Mike Conley
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:03 pm
Location: Catlettsburg, Kentucky USA
Has liked: 133 times
Been Liked: 139 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Mike Conley » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:57 pm

Wish mine did that. My Tiger 1 and Panther have suspensions as solid as a brick. The wheels will rise crossing over anything but they're not in any way 'bouncey'. And if I would put my foot on'em they would just raise back up stiffy. My swingarm shafts are greased but the springs are just too firm.

Mike
Armortek Models: King Tiger, Tiger 1, Panther G, Panzer IV, Sd Kfz 7, Sd Kfz 222, M4A3 Sherman, M3 Lee.

Phil Woollard
Posts: 2561
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:48 pm
Location: Cornwall
Has liked: 677 times
Been Liked: 1914 times
Contact:

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Phil Woollard » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:11 pm

I may have had something to do with what makes your Panther behave like that! How about this? https://youtu.be/-NViwvprdQE this took some working out i can tell you 8) The video is a bit long winded but then it is a study. All I will say is that it's easier to get a Bergepanther to dive and lurch like this but it's possible to set up any heavy tracked model that Armortek produce simply because they are so heavy, just like the real thing (prototypical and all that) It's a combination of a number of factors and when it's all just so, hey presto it works. :D I hope this gives you some encouragement Mike regards Phil
Attachments
IMG_0167.JPG
Mechanical engineer.
Youtube channel, Magpiespyro. For 1/6th scale video action!

Mike Conley
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:03 pm
Location: Catlettsburg, Kentucky USA
Has liked: 133 times
Been Liked: 139 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Mike Conley » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:55 pm

Phil, YOU are a BRAIN!!! That is OUTSTANDING!! That is exactly how I would like my tanks to move!! It's how heavy equipment behave!

Mike
Armortek Models: King Tiger, Tiger 1, Panther G, Panzer IV, Sd Kfz 7, Sd Kfz 222, M4A3 Sherman, M3 Lee.

User avatar
Stephen White
Site Admin
Posts: 2498
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:05 pm
Location: Dorset
Has liked: 348 times
Been Liked: 736 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Stephen White » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:24 pm

Mike, couldn't agree more that this increases realism. I bored out the front and rear shock absorbers on my Pz III and added some serious springs and that really created the rocking motion you mentioned. It is worth doing. Stephen

Mike Conley
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:03 pm
Location: Catlettsburg, Kentucky USA
Has liked: 133 times
Been Liked: 139 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Mike Conley » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:54 pm

Thanks Stephan!

But the Tiger and Panther don't have shocks, just torsion bars. Good advice to have though!

Mike
Armortek Models: King Tiger, Tiger 1, Panther G, Panzer IV, Sd Kfz 7, Sd Kfz 222, M4A3 Sherman, M3 Lee.

Christoffer Ahlfors
Posts: 420
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:19 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Has liked: 228 times
Been Liked: 71 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Christoffer Ahlfors » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:45 pm

I have long been thinking to ask the same question. It should be very doable with the adjustable suspension.
Let's get to trying it out then! :D
At a fair, an industry automation fellow told me that all I had to do to get the right rocking, was to install pneumatic cylinders on the leading and trailing road wheels, connect them to some valves and use and old PET bottle of the rigid kind (we used to have thick walled, reusable PET bottles some years back), that you pump up with a bicycle pump and some control logic to that. That's all it takes! What an understatement... :roll:
Klotzen, nicht kleckern (Guderian on panzer tactics, but the way I interpret it - it applies to a great many things in life)

User avatar
Adrian Harris
Posts: 3821
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:46 pm
Location: Berkshire (UK)
Has liked: 198 times
Been Liked: 307 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Adrian Harris » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:14 pm

Can't wait for the first "Still D.R.E." Panzer III :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Adrian.
Contact me at sales@armortekaddict.uk for details of my smoker fan control module and other electronic gadgetry

Simon Peck
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:24 am
Been Liked: 15 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Simon Peck » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:11 am

Interesting conversation/topic. I know later Armortek Panther (and variant) models have double torsion bars as opposed to earlier models with single torsion bars, but I’d be interested to hear what combination of factors you use Phil?

Phil Woollard
Posts: 2561
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:48 pm
Location: Cornwall
Has liked: 677 times
Been Liked: 1914 times
Contact:

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Phil Woollard » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:20 am

Simon it's all down to weight distribution, and the lack of friction, the latter due to a lot of careful setting up of the running gear, along with mainly double torsion bar vehicle subjects but one of the most important factors is the motor control inputs ( driving technique ) from that TX 8) Have some fun tearing up the lawn! 8)
Mechanical engineer.
Youtube channel, Magpiespyro. For 1/6th scale video action!

Mike Conley
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:03 pm
Location: Catlettsburg, Kentucky USA
Has liked: 133 times
Been Liked: 139 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Mike Conley » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:00 pm

For a LONG time I've been wondering IF there's a way to get an Armortek tank to 'rock' when it starts/stops like a real tank. I've been thinking about it a LOT ever since I asked the question on here.

Day before yesterday I lifted the turret off my Tiger 1 (to reduce the weight) and I drove it up on the tall build cart. The main electric switch had started getting very stiff to flip on/off and I had to remove the upper deck go get to it. After the JOB of pulling the upper deck off I figured I ought to look under the wood decking inside just to see if everything was okay...

WELL one thing lead to another and if I was THIS far inside, might as well move the front and rear 5mm torsion bars OUTWARD and move the 5.5 bars to the inside to test it!

So yesterday morning I removed all the swingarms/torsion bars out. About that time I realized I MUST BE CRAZY to do this just to check out my own 'theory' IF this would make ANY difference! But I was too far in to quit. It started getting HOT (95 degrees) in the garage and I heard the 'Siren Song' of the BEEER fridge & PIZZA inside so that's was it for that day.

(A Little History: When this first 2003 Tiger 1 came out it had eight 4mm torsion bars (eight, four for each middle side) and eight heavier 5mm (four each side) in the corner front/rear. When I purchased this '03 T1 it had been ran very little BUT one of the 4mm torsion bars was broke. SO, when I found out later Armortek Tigers had 5/5.5mm bars, I ordered a set of 5.5 ones, switched the 5.5mm to the ends and put the 5mms in the middle. I also had to move the 5mm anchor blocks to the middle and drill the 4mm ones out to 5.5. then put them on the ends.)

Then this morning I reinstalled the 5mm bars (four front/four rear) and put the 5.5mm ones in the middle. I still have to put the wheels, deck, batteries, etc., on tomorrow but I feel I've been on a fools errand to do this JUST to see for my own curiosity IF it would make a difference on 'rocking'. Then it got HOT again so... (i.e.: AC, BEEER, tacos, TV, etc...)

What I honestly think will happen is: 1) It WON'T make ANY difference on getting the tank to 'rock' cause 5mm and 5.5mm are still pretty stiff. and 2) It may result in a one (or more) broken 5mm end bars later... So after two mornings of getting dirty/greasy and thinking I should work for 'NASTANK' I got it done. I just had to try it for my OWN curiosity...

It's probability been a LOT of work for nothing. But as soon I'll get it off the lift, drive it around a while, I'll let you know if it makes ANY difference (I don't think it will but I DID get REALLY FAST at switching'em about the time I got DONE!).

Mike (the BONEIFED NUT in Kentucky!)
Attachments
MVC-225S.JPG
MVC-225S.JPG (40.37 KiB) Viewed 1137 times
MVC-227S.JPG
MVC-227S.JPG (37.98 KiB) Viewed 1137 times
MVC-228S.JPG
MVC-228S.JPG (39.73 KiB) Viewed 1137 times
Last edited by Mike Conley on Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Armortek Models: King Tiger, Tiger 1, Panther G, Panzer IV, Sd Kfz 7, Sd Kfz 222, M4A3 Sherman, M3 Lee.

Mike Conley
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:03 pm
Location: Catlettsburg, Kentucky USA
Has liked: 133 times
Been Liked: 139 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Mike Conley » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:21 pm

I started putting everything back together this morning. I couldn't find one of the road wheels SOOO, with a little shimming, I figure THIS'LL work PERFECT!! Me having the BRANE POWER I got I thought this out all by myself! This is how we fix thangs in Kentucky!! I don't think anybody'll even notice!!

Mike
Attachments
MVC-230S.JPG
MVC-230S.JPG (38.77 KiB) Viewed 1025 times
Armortek Models: King Tiger, Tiger 1, Panther G, Panzer IV, Sd Kfz 7, Sd Kfz 222, M4A3 Sherman, M3 Lee.

Mark Heaps
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:39 pm
Has liked: 131 times
Been Liked: 143 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Mark Heaps » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:46 pm

I would suggest there is no one solution fits all. It would have to be tailored to the vehicle.
Part of the "rock" effect is also dependent on the final drives taking up or increasing the slack in the tracks and pulling the front or rear of the hull up or down whilst braking or accelerating. A vehicle with the final drives at the front ( eg FV430 series) would "rock" differently to one such as Chieftain that had the final drives at the rear.
Suspensions were also generally designed to reduce the "rock" to a minimum as it was unwanted. Drivers would also try to drive the vehicles to keep any "rock" to the minimum. Prevents crew discomfort and in the case of a gun tank, reduces the need for the gunner to re-acquire the target before being able to engage it.
Warrior ( FV510 series ) was different and had a noticeable "rock", so much so that they had warning plates on the rear warning cars behind to keep their distance in case the vehicle braked. They would literally stand on their nose before the back end came crashing back down. If the car behind had got too close, the bonnet would be crushed.
Being an ECE, unless I had to command the vehicle, or needed to stay awake to operate the radios, when it was moving was my time to grab some much needed sleep to be ready for my next repair job. ChARRV, CrARRV, FV432 just lulled you to sleep. Commander would be almost constantly speaking to the radio op to keep him awake. On the ChARRV, the NBC pack was on top of the T-Piece above the engine bay. I laid out on it during one range package and woke up 3 hours later after the vehicle had done a 20 km cross country move to a different range.

Christoffer Ahlfors
Posts: 420
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:19 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Has liked: 228 times
Been Liked: 71 times

Re: Would Stiffer Center Springs Make Tanks Rock?

Post by Christoffer Ahlfors » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:24 pm

Mike,
I am very interested in hearing about your experiences on this. You beat me to the testing! :D
Will it be enough? Perhaps we need to put the batteries in the turret?
Klotzen, nicht kleckern (Guderian on panzer tactics, but the way I interpret it - it applies to a great many things in life)

Post Reply