Moaning Tiger owner

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ROB FERN
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:50 pm
Location: Devon

Moaning Tiger owner

Post by ROB FERN » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:38 pm

Just felt that I had to post something about the number of people that have asked me about my Tiger 1 that I have for sale.
Loads of people have contacted me asking for info and pictures, but then don't bother to say "thanks but no thanks" or even "too expensive" or "pile of c##p"!!! even when I have e-mailed them for a response.
If they don't want to buy it then thats fine, but it would be nice if some folk had a bit more manners. The plus side is I have met afew nice people and been able to help them with their other projects.
I am aware that some may think this post is in the wrong place but I feel its relevent to all and I'm sure others (armortek included) have had the same problem.
I feel much better for a good rant.

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Patrick O'Donnell
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Post by Patrick O'Donnell » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:07 am

There there Rob it's only Tiger 1.
But seriously I hope that you will sell your Tiger 1 very soon.
What are you going to build next?
Patrick
Image
Rene, "Would you like a ride in my little tank?"

ROB FERN
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:50 pm
Location: Devon

Post by ROB FERN » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:54 am

It just bugs me as they want extra pics which in itself is fine, but I don't live on my computer, so it takes me ages to drag her out, take and upload them, only for them not to respond even when contacted afew times.Still, enough whinging.
I design and build large railway engines as well as pattern making and other things and have a large railway in my garden thats under construction at the moment, you can see the tunnel in the background of the first pic. Its 6x6x26 ft and I have a viaduct to build about 65ft long and 8 ft high. Its all the same scale as Peter Shaw's stuff, 5 inch gauge.
I was about to start scratchbuilding a 1/6 tiger when I came across Armortek and the rest is history as they say.
As for next, I would love to do a king tiger but I am slowly realising that I will need to live untill I'm 194 to do all these things. Plus to be honest I think that I enjoy the build more than the actual opperating, I wonder how many others are like that? As for now I get alot of pleasure from looking at her in the corner of the dinning room, restlessly waiting for her next campaign!!!!

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Allan Richards
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Post by Allan Richards » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:56 am

Rob,

I would agree that most people are into building, which is why there is such a healthy industry producing the detail parts. Once the model is "finished" and running then the challenge diminishes to a certain extent. I think that the best way is to not ever actually complete the model. My TIger has been running for some time now but I'm always fiddling and improving it. The next project will be to fit a camera to it.

Its a shame that we can't get a regular running event, i now take my model to the local R/C car track where there is some terrain to play over beside the track, and it generates a lot of interest,
Allan Richards

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Patrick O'Donnell
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Post by Patrick O'Donnell » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:21 pm

Rob,
That is very interesting about the 5 inch gauge railway and it is one of those things that will never be finished. Yes I would agree that the building side of the hobby is what interests me the most and when it is almost finished I feel a little sad. I know that it is possible to add little details here and there, but that is not the same as a proper build.
Patrick
Image
Rene, "Would you like a ride in my little tank?"

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Tim Bowman
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Post by Tim Bowman » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:35 pm

Rob,

The tunnel in your garden for your train looks super! It was a great background for your Tiger picture. Hey with todays advances in medicine 194 is not out of the question :)

Kind regards

Tim

Gerrit Haarhoff
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Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:46 am
Location: South Africa

Post by Gerrit Haarhoff » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:50 pm

Hi Rob,
I cannot seem to find your photos. Have you posted them in the gallery?
Please direct me. I am not a potential buyer but would like to see your model

Gerrit

ROB FERN
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:50 pm
Location: Devon

Post by ROB FERN » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:07 pm

Hi Gerrit.
There are three pictures in the "for sale and wants" section under "operational early tiger 1 for sale".
It is looking like I may well end up keeping her as there has been a great amount of interest,but I think we all tend to forget that its alot of money to spend on a toy, and interest rates ect the way they are at the moment heavily curtail all our spending habits.
I don't have a problem with keeping her as she looks so good in the corner of our dinning room, but I think that I will eventualy repaint her into desert colours, that seems to look great and shows the weathering and damage up very well. I was very impressed by the finish on Vince's 222, an inspiration to us all.

jseverett
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Post by jseverett » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:10 pm

Rob,
I have my Panther kit + options 1 & 2 up for sale and have run into the same issue with some of the inquiries (or queries as you Brits would say). Not so easy to sell as to purchase.

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Doug Pinkerton
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Resale value

Post by Doug Pinkerton » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:48 pm

When evaluating the resale value of various Armortek products, I think timing plays a major part in the resaleability of a product. If there is an ample supply of an unbuilt kit for sale new from the manufacturer, then it stands to reason that it will be difficult to resell an unbuilt kit without offering a substantial discount, which, unless the original buyer got some kind of discount himself, will result in a loss for the original buyer. The more time that elapses after Armortek has stopped selling any particular model, the more likely it is that resellers will find a ready market of buyers.

Regarding built-up models, the risk of resale is more substantial. Despite the fact that the builder has spent anywhere from a few months to several years assembling and detailing his obsession, the market will seldom reward time spent, and may not even reimburse money invested. Rather, it is dependent on timing (the availability of alternatives of similar or better quality in the market), the general quality of finish, detailing, and inclusion of additional operating features, and finally the amount of personalization that the modeller has put into the model.

Regarding customization and personalization, with the notable exception of some truly remarkable examples such as Vince Abbott's beautiful Tiger, it is a reality that the more the modeller has altered the model from its original configuration thru weathering, battle damage, and addition of non-standard accessories, the more limited the anticipated market for that particular model is likely to be. It stands to reason that one man's potion is another's poison... Other than including parts which improve the accuracy of the replica towards the original manufactured prototype, the efforts of many modellers to replicate particular examples in particular situations, many of which entail extensive modifications, risk limiting the appeal to any other modellers not seeking the same particular example in the same particular condition. Such modellers are cautioned to embark on extensive modification programs with due regard to resale, as that will be unpredictable. Not interested in reselling? By all means, indulge your fantasies, and customize to your own personal tastes.

This is not to denigrate the quality, beauty, and value of anyone's hard-earned results but only to point out that if one expects to resell his Armortek kits, built or unbuilt, he must not ignore the realities of the marketplace.

Finally, I would judge that right now it is a buyer's market for most Armortek products, since they have been on the market for such a short time, and as such sellers should expect occasional inconsiderate responses, and not take them personally. The time will come when buyers will outnumber sellers, and then we shall see who ultimately is rewarded for his investments and his efforts.
Last edited by Doug Pinkerton on Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Doug

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Allan Richards
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Post by Allan Richards » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:28 am

What Doug says makes good sense. I think its a fact of life in the modelling world that one raely gets back what one has paid when selling a model. If one also considers costing the time spent building and detailing the model then one will be very short of the "real" value of the model.

Another factor is that these models come up for sale quite frequently, probably due to the fact that people like to build rather than run the models. Also I think that these models have a limited sphere of interest compared to say aircraft and boats, they certainly generate a great deal of interest at events when out and about, but it is a lot of money to spend, so people are reluctant to commit if they are not seriously into tanks etc

A possible exception to this may be live steam models which seem to comand very good prices and re-sale value
Allan Richards

ROB FERN
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:50 pm
Location: Devon

Post by ROB FERN » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:39 pm

All of the above is spot on it seems.
I have spent all my life building railway locos profesionaly and they always sell for alot more than the kit price, unless the builder has made a total mess of it that is!
I think that the problem lies as mentioned in that the world of R/C models will not pay for the labour of the builder and thats that.
Also with a loco, I build it usually as it left the factory or a little worn, but with the tanks, people want all sorts of detail changes, modifications,damage and of course weathering, and as you say this is very very personal. I for one quite like some peoples camo paint schemes but would never want to own one like that in a million years as I prefere the desert or grey colours as they show of the machine alot more. (the camo works too well!)
Also I think you have to be quite comitted to pay these sums of money and I have had many many customers over the years who like to convince themselves that they will buy a model from you, but in reality there is no way on earth that-

1: they would never find the money or,

2: their other half would let them!(this is normaly the first reason)

And as I said earlier, its no real hardship to keep her, as these machines look so very good and have an amazing presence, which is why I got her in the first place. I can never go back cause 1/16 or 1/35 these aint!!!! Ha Ha.

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Martin Cohen
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Post by Martin Cohen » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:13 pm

I can read this article from several points of view, and guess at some motives. I think of:

• the builder who does it for the self satisfaction :), not seeking a medal or other great rewards since the journey is the reward. Maybe hoping that if they ever choose to move on and sell one model to make room for another, then they will recoup at least some or all the hardware costs. But maybe the truest gain would be the experience and knowledge - the value of this should well exceed the discount allowed when selling a completed kit.

• there could be some room for a builder who sets up shop to sell static or running completed kits for display, something like we see ship models, etc. in a hotel or bar. But I must point out, I was never greeted at a hotel by a Tiger I.

• those who seek to buy used span from: the bargain hunter who can not otherwise afford a new kit, or another who as a matter of principle does not care to pay a fair price, or the uninformed who may have no clue about the costs and risks of 1/6th, to those who simply are seeking an out of production kit to build. Some people may not be likely to pay any premium for a built kit since they may plan to tear it down and start all over.

• there are those who lack the time and or skills, and they hope to benefit from others willing competence by paying for a completed kit or contracting a builder. These buyers run some risk of not developing any knowledge of the intricacies - they may lack the tools or skills to service or repair one of these beasts. Let's face it, how many people in 2007 know how to turn on a Lathe?

• then there are those in the USA, who under our current illustrious leadership have seen lifestyle and purchasing power diminish :cry:.....but that's for another posting altogether.

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Allan Richards
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Post by Allan Richards » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:39 am

There are some very good points raised in the last two postings. I've been into model making all my life, starting as a kid with Airfix kits, control line model aircraft, static model period ships, a dabble in R/C boats and R/C cars. After a break of several years home making and raising kids I bought a 1/16th Tamiya R/C Sherman and resurected some old 4 ch 27 MHz AM radio to work it. Big mistake, I now have the set of 16th Tamiya tanks, 15th Bandai tanks and two Armortek models and a 1/6th 21 Cent Stuart!!.

I'mtempted to sell some of the Bandia and Tamiya models as they don't get used much now since I completed the 1/6th Tiger and modified the Stuart into a proper R/C model. The problem is that the 1/16th models don't sell for too much on e-bay, especially since the cheap Hen Long stuff came out. - then there is all the hassle associated with packing and posting them. The only models that have sold have been the period ships in their glass cases, seveal people have been keen to buy these and offerred good money.
Allan Richards

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Doug Pinkerton
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Post by Doug Pinkerton » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:25 pm

While it's true that there doesn't seem to be much actual selling going on right now with Armortek models (lots of offering, not so much selling), I do think that due to the relative scarcity of the Armortek models, along with their uniqueness in that they are the only fully metal, high quality 1/6 replicas out there, will eventually mean a decent resale market for well-done Armortek tanks. Until somebody else comes out with a cheaper version with the same or better quality, Armortek is in a class of its own. Of course, if somebody markets a similar-quality 1/4 scale Tiger..... That would change everything! Armortek?

All your points are well taken. A fellow counting on reselling his Armortek model, built or unbuilt, for a profit is probably involved for the wrong reason, and certainly could find better returns on investment, purely financially speaking, elsewhere.
Doug

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