Mick's Panther A

Forum for discussion relating to the Panther
simon_manning
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by simon_manning » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:45 pm

you will love this stage once you get going mick, once started hard to stop, regards simon manning

Phil Woollard
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by Phil Woollard » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:55 am

Hi Mick, I have been holding back with any advice ref your questions/concerns to let the masters have a say, so now I will offer some pointers to help you along.
Firstly before any advise, what paint have you already applied, I need to know the solvent make up ? This is so that any further coverings that I recommend don't conflict with what you have so skilfully applied.
The wet and dry process is a good start, you have highlighted the welds nicely (I don't know if you planned that) but that's half the battle with my preferred weathering processes ....."revealing what's underneath". If you only used and abrasive on the raised areas and corners and rubbed through those edges holding back when you got to the desired undercoats, that produces a good effect in it's self, that's just one technique of the many we would use to build an interesting patina.
Once I know the solvents that you have used we can then try the rubbing with a rag dipped in say a mild solvent like the Tamiya acrylic or my preferred solvent Methylated spirits (if you used cellulose thinners you would "cut through" so quickly you would have little control)

My advice can only work if we can have a little peace for a simple tutorial between us :D it's only my simple technique, one of many but it would be a start ..Phil.
Last edited by Phil Woollard on Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by michael hilton » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:34 am

Good morning Phil, lovely morning here in Mid Wales. Thank you for your reply, I was hesitant when asking for advice I know this subject can be debatable and have many conflicts. I am looking for the basics of do's and don'ts. The light sanding has revealed some of the metal edges, which actually looks ok. I will post the paints and solvents I intend to use....I have a plan of sorts, sand off paint lines, varnish, fixer, wash, dot wash, etc,. I'm off to the local 'day centre' with my wife who, looks forward to attending, will post later...thanks again...Mick
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IMG_1083.JPG
Limited washes and paints, mainly acrylic type

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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by Phil Woollard » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:17 am

Hi Mick, yes sort the wife out first :D, I will help you with the basic wash and rubbing, when it comes to the oils/powders then refer to Stephens comprehensive guide.
It looks like the acrylic thinner or meths will be fine on your paint job but just test an area first to see if there is any adverse reaction like bubbling or cracking. You wont need any fixing or clear coat for the initial wash work. As you haven't applied any underlying dark paint (other than the red oxide) then we must work with what we have.

Maybe start with a road wheel removed from the axle and placed flat on the bench.

First thing mix a wash, use your own eye to judge the colour you want but basically a Tamiya black or very dark brown will be fine.
The ratio is very weak (when you get more confidence then you can go darker) try mixing in a small dish, pour in some of thinner then dunk a 8 to 10mm soft brush in the black and mix it about, it should be like Bovril(the drink not the neat goo) maybe 100 to 1 (better to thin than to thick).

Then the fun starts, apply the wash liberally all over the wheel and let it run into the joins, seams and around the nuts and all the detail. cover every bit or you will have a "daywork" line and Leave to dry, sometimes I will remove while it's still tacky but that takes some skill. Don't worry about dirt or brush hairs on the surface (within reason) as these will add interest when the wash dry's, just remove the unwanted hairs when dry, this leaving subtle dark silhouette's on the surface which you won't have to add. The dirt specks tend to hold on to the wash, sometimes allowing tiny drip streaks to run down which look good.

If you think its to dark or you don't like the amount or the way it's covered, then you can simply stand the wheel up and using neat thinner wash it all off starting at the top and working down ( that's an important rescue point to remember ) but don't hang around as you may remove the paint if you take to long!

You may have noticed that I don't think it's worth paying lots of dosh for basic washes, all you are paying for is thinners and a touch of pigment which most of us have on our selves, just mix them up and see what you get, the black can be semi gloss, matt or oak funnel it really doesn't matter.
An artist uses only the few primary colours and uses his eye to mix those to get what he wants . Mix them all together and you get brown!

Let me know when you get this far....Phil.
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by michael hilton » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:54 pm

Hello Phil and thank you for the advice. Here goes...the undercoat is Halfords red oxide. The camo paint used is Army Paint Industrial, gawd knows what is in it, the 're-enactors use this paint.....the rattle can mentions acetone and petroleum but does not say what type of paint, enamel, acrylic etc, I do know that cellulose/enamel thinner will not remove it.
So far I have simply lightly sanded the hull surface, which revealed the weld lines and edges. I have removed a wheel and will follow your instructions....I know you are busy so I will only post when or if things go wrong...so far so good.....Mick

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Stephen White
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by Stephen White » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:56 pm

michael hilton wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:34 am
Thank you for your reply, I was hesitant when asking for advice I know this subject can be debatable and have many conflicts.
Mick, as Simon said, this bit is fun. You’re right to say that weathering is debatable but what you call conflicts really only reflects the diversity of methods, all of which are valid. It’s a matter of experimenting and seeing what works for you.

I’m a bit pre-occupied with getting the Cent in a fit state to take to Bovington but I’ve recorded a few short videos illustrating how I do rendering, washes and pigments. I don’t have a need for a filter (= “fixer”) on the Cent as it’s a single colour, so no video but if you look at my Pz III thread or the Knowledge Base, you’ll see the filter I used to harmonize and tone down the two colour camouflage.

You asked about colour choice. The purpose of a filter is to reduce the intensity of the colours. To do that, you need to choose a colour which is complementary to the main colour ie dunkelgelb. If you have a look at the colour chart in the Knowledge Base, you’ll see that the complement of yellow is blue. So your filter should be a grayish, blueish, very, very thin. I would use an oil, thinned with odourless turps. That’s a safe option because you can remove it easily, up to 48 hours after applying it. Phil rightly asked you about the base coat paint because the thinners used by enamels and acrylics can affect the base.

If you went with oils, you might consider Abteilung 502oiks, which have reduced linseed oil, dry quicker and matt. You might consider Payne’s Grey (which won’t lighten the camouflage):

http://abteilung502.com/product/paynes-grey/j

An alternative which would lighten the camouflage would be Neutral Gray:

http://abteilung502.com/product/neutral-grey/

With a filter, it has to be thinned until translucent, applying it sparingly with a broad brush and make sure it doesn’t flood or pool or you’ll get the effect of a wash.

I’ll try to upload the vids in the next couple of days. I don’t have time to edit or add commentary, so they’ll be rough as...

All the best and ENJOY.

Stephen

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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by Phil Woollard » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:29 pm

Best laid plans and all that, well Mick I will top coat one of the KT road wheels tomorrow before I go weight training, then by the time I get back it will be dry and we can go through the wash together, yours should be perfectly dry by then so we can proceed step by step :D, once you are happy with the technique you can have a go at the filter that Stephen is referring to (personably I feel the wash applied correctly will tone down the splinter camo somewhat) ...Phil.
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by michael hilton » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:05 am

Hello Stephen, and thank you for the information about colours, look forward to the Video's. I have trawled through the many videos on utube, so confusing, I'll stick to the Knowledge Base.
Ok Phil, all set, weight training, that takes me back, the best I can do now is a full mug of tea....Mick

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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by Phil Woollard » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:09 pm

Hi Mick, I have painted around 3 KT wheels in various Wehrmacht colours and will apply a coat of wash and post some pics in a bit with before and after shots, have you applied the wash Mick and if so is it dry? Can we have a pic please. It's so exciting init :D .

You will need some of the thinner that you have used for the wash (or meths) and a nice clean cotton rag (lint free ) oh and your finger.

As you have used NATO spec paint for the Panther I feel that we won't have any trouble with that coat being affected, if we want to cut through that as well to reach your undercoats we will need Acetone or Petroleum Spirit and a rag and finger......Phil.
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by Phil Woollard » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:22 pm

Some pics of what you need to start with Mick.

When you have mastered this really easy method we can then move onto the large armour plates, we have a way to go as yet though, so lets learn to walk before we can run. :D
Phil.
Attachments
DSC_1289.JPG
Mixing tray a soft brush and a hard brush, the latter is for rescuing or scrubbing stubborn areas.
DSC_1290.JPG
I am going to use meths as it's cheap and well suited to Tamiya acrylics, that's semi gloss black which won't look semi gloss with all that thinner.
DSC_1286.JPG
German grey, dunkelgelb and what needs to be applied underneath to "grin" through when we want to rub right back removing the top coat, red oxide was used as the undercoat for German vehicles but dark colours seem to work best in scale.
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by michael hilton » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:41 pm

Hello Phil, all good, excuse the delay replying, as a full time 'carer' for my wife I have certain chores to perform before I am let loose in the workshop. I removed a wheel and applied a diluted coat of acrylic Vallejo black this morning, looks good around the wheel nuts....mick
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by Phil Woollard » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:49 pm

Yes it looks good, maybe add another coat to darken further me ol mate. If you want it to dry quicker warm the wheel on the radiator first then paint and then put it back on the rad :D Don't hang around with the second coat or you will dissolve the first! Maybe a bit more pigment colour to the mix..Phil.
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by Phil Woollard » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:28 pm

Are all the wheels red oxide? Remember to achieve the illusion of size in our 1/6th world we make the lower parts of the vehicle darker than the top, also the vehicle would attract lots more grud and scars lower down from normal use so we need to keep this in mind.
Remind me to show you how to apply leaky oil stains from the hub using centrifugal force when we are done with this stage, you will enjoy creating those but the temptation is to add to many so we have to hold back.

Phil.
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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by Stephen White » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:00 pm

Mick, Phil, there were a few photos of the next weathering steps on my Pz III build log here:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=970&start=555

I was using enamel filters then but have subsequently turned to oils. It will be the middle of next week before I can upload the videos - rural broadband doesn’t help.

Good luck with it all.

Stephen

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Re: Mick's Panther A

Post by Phil Woollard » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:01 pm

Hi Stephen, I'm having trouble with the rural broad band also , very frustrating to say the least. This wash related tutorial will take a while, although straight forward there is so much to it with so many variations it will keep us busy for a while yet, love that P111 regards Phil. Oh and your far to busy at present! :D
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