Heaven. 1944.

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Pete Nash
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Re: Heaven. 1944.

Post by Pete Nash » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:26 am

Mark and Chris are both right.

The 3 inch rocket with 60lb head was not an accurate weapon and was largely innefective against armoured targets.
In a post Falaise survey the RAF Operational Research branch came to that conclusion, plus that the 20mm Cannon was more effective against practically every target in one way or another.
Against soft skinned targets it was extremely effective as one would expect and caused innumerable blockages for all other transport, including tracked vehicles. Against armoured targets they were not effective at destroying the target but caused superficial damage to structure and crew by 'spalling'.ie bits of metal being knocked off the inside.
A variety of heads were used in the Hispano 20mm Cannon, Ball, HE, HE(Iinceniary), and Armour piercing for example,. As for the Rockets, survivors tended towards the demoralising effect of an aircraft launching the equivalent of a 6 inch Cruiser launching a broad side at them as a contributing factor for them to abandon their vehicles and walk rather than attracting attention and further attacks.

The whole debacle at Falaise for the Germans was down to a number of contributing factors that possibly could have been avoided.
First was Adolf's refusal to allow his commanders in the field to withdraw in an orderly fashion, if he had then the German army might well have been able to 'fight another day
Seond was the British and coomonwealth armies striking from the North with the American Armies coming up from the south.
Third, and decisive in the destruction was allied air superiority.
Fourth, and possibly the lesser, the reliability of the German tanks themselves. Prone to breakdown they woulkd inevitably have created their own traffic congestion. rather like the M25 at peack times from the M3 to the M40.

Possibly the most effective use of the Typhoon was a carry over by Air Vice Marshal Teddet from his Desert Days, the use of the 'Cab Rank' system whereby armed Typhoon Tempest and Spitfires would take off with rockets and bombs and fly in a particular area in a race-rack pattern. An RAF ground Controller with the leading sections of the Army that met resistance would call down the waiting aircraft to bomb and rocket the defenders.

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Kent Wiik
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Re: Heaven. 1944.

Post by Kent Wiik » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:02 am

Brian Ostlind wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:54 pm
What would be the most effective anti tank weapon for a plane to mount? Canons?

Two 37 mm Flak 18 guns on a Stuka Ju 87G worked pretty well.
Just Google Hans-Ulrich Rudel. :D

Kind regards
Kent
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John Clarke
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Re: Heaven. 1944.

Post by John Clarke » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:12 am

Brian Ostlind wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:54 pm
What would be the most effective anti tank weapon for a plane to mount? Canons?
A blow torch :!:

My dad, a scrap merchant, would have had a field day cutting that lot of German "Junk" up. :lol:

He would have got a pretty price from Richards foundry in Nottingham.
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Re: Heaven. 1944.

Post by mark lawson » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:35 pm

Chris, the problem with a near miss is 100 meters was considered a near miss many of these rockets were landing up to 300 meters from the target this would hardly cause the crew to bail out and leave the tank, carpet bombing was even worse a near miss was measured in miles being on target was within 1/2 mile of the target.
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Robert Reid
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Re: Heaven. 1944.

Post by Robert Reid » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:49 pm

An interesting side-effect of some of the carpet-bombing was that large bursts could suck enough oxygen out of an area that it could suffocate folks on the ground. A crew might be safe from splinters and blast damage... and still suffocate from lack of O2.

Not sure the ordnance in WW2 had enough 'oomph' but the ArcLight strikes in VN certainly did.

To the original picture.... oh to have a time machine and be able to put a bunch of stuff in a warehouse to 'pick up' later. Then again, I don't think I would choose halftracks and Panzer III's... I'd choose Bugatti's, Mercedes 500K's and Enigma Machines... The multiples are better!

But it's nice to dream!

On a related note... in 1993, Iraq was considered to have the largest supply of salable scrap metal in the world. By tonnage. After oil, it was their greatest resource for a couple of years. Them T72's and T80's and BTR's were great live fire targets.

Cheers,

RPR

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Kent Wiik
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Re: Heaven. 1944.

Post by Kent Wiik » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:02 am

Robert Reid wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:49 pm
On a related note... in 1993, Iraq was considered to have the largest supply of salable scrap metal in the world. By tonnage. After oil, it was their greatest resource for a couple of years. Them T72's and T80's and BTR's were great live fire targets.
But of no use as they were victims of depleted uranium (DU) ammunition and radioactive contaminated.
https://www.ltu.se/cms_fs/1.85152!/file ... ri%201.pdf

The steelwork here in my hometown Luleå always check the new shipment of scrap metal for radioactivity and if found the ship will have to take the cargo back to the sender.

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Kent
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Mark Heaps
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Re: Heaven. 1944.

Post by Mark Heaps » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:59 pm

Did you bother to read the link before you posted it ?
It has a lot of easily detectable errors and cannot be trusted as a sceintific research paper.

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Re: Heaven. 1944.

Post by John-Heaps » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:36 pm

Hi All,
most heavy armour was taken taken out with DEPLETED URANIUM rounds, does the name not give it away that they are not active, or could someone please explain how depleted can somehow become radio active again after being fired, the main hazard was from the dust left behind after a hit as heavy metals can not be expelled from the body once absorbed, that is why you dont go into or on shot out vehicles.

Hey i was only a gunnery instructor so what do i know.

Cheers
John

Pete Nash
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Re: Heaven. 1944.

Post by Pete Nash » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:24 pm

Gents

Can we get away from the Iraq wars, Depleted Uranium, and the legacy of that and other modern conflicts. The subject is going to stir up a lot of controversy and blaming that is the Provence of politicians and campaigners.

This is a discussion Forum on Heaven 1944, possible reasons why the tanks etc in the original image are there, and our hobby of 1/6 scale tanks NOT THE IRAQ WARS OR THE BALKANS CONFLICTS.

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Re: Heaven. 1944.

Post by mark lawson » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:32 pm

The Pentagon claims that American forces and Iraqis are not at risk from contact with depleted uranium, which is used in armor-piercing munitions and protective tank plating.

That's baloney to some scientists who insist the widespread use of depleted uranium during the American-led invasion and occupation of Iraq poses a grave danger.

Despite attempts to reassure the public, the Pentagon remains on the defensive.

Depleted uranium, or DU, is a radioactive by-product from the industrial process used to enrich uranium. It is the leftover uranium-238 that results when scientists seek to transform naturally occurring uranium into uranium-235, which is used to produce nuclear energy.

The Army values munitions manufactured from depleted uranium because, when fused with metal alloys, they are considered the most effective warhead for penetrating enemy tanks. Also, because depleted uranium is twice as dense as lead, the Army uses DU as armor plating.

Once a depleted-uranium round strikes its target, the projectile begins to burn on impact, creating tiny particles of radioactive U-238. Winds can transport this radioactive dust many miles, potentially contaminating the air that innocent humans breathe.

This inhalation may cause lung cancer, kidney damage, cancers of bones and skin, as well as birth defects and chemical poisoning.

The 1991 Persian Gulf War was the first conflict to see the widespread use of depleted uranium, both in armor-piercing projectiles and in the protective armor of the new generation of Abrams tanks.

Studies by the Pentagon and the National Academy of Sciences established no linkage between DU and the "Gulf War Syndrome" ailments after the first Gulf War.

Some 70 people are still under study for the effects of contact with DU, with particular emphasis on what happens when people breathe the air where DU projectiles have vaporized.
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